Potential Investor

[blue nige]

A Keenundrum?

FWIW, I don't think any of the BoD would obstruct a takeover if it was genuinely in the best interests of the club, creditors etc etc. We've heard one side of the story, hopefully we'll hear the other side. If the offer was unacceptable (for instance if it didn't meet FA criteria) then let's hear it. Then the ball is back in Paul Casson's court if he wants to have another go at it.

you have said it all "hopefully we`ll hear the other side", and that`s the problem if that article hadn`t appeared last night we would have been told nothing because that`s what the board wanted ,they hid behind "the non disclosure agreement" why can`t people understand WHILE CERTAIN DIRECTORS ARE OWED MONEY THEY WILL BLOCK ANY ATTEMPT TO STOP THEM BEING IN CONTROL! ,this then creates a "conflict of interest" so how can they negotiate to sell the club to a third party (after going to the membership) if the loans are one of the stumbling blocks?
it`s time people on here got real and realise what`s going on at present it`s nothing short of a dictatorship why is it that we lost all those directors? there has to be something wrong.

[John Very Little]

Just out of polite interest - and please pardon my ignorance - but perhaps one of the members/someone privy to this info can answer:
1. Who exactly do we owe money to?
2. From when exactly?
3. How much do we exactly owe them?
Ta.

We owe money to various different creditors but some are secured loans (against the ground) and the rest are unsecured. Mr Casson has offered to pay the loans secured against the ground to Furness Building Society 78K (mortgage), Debentures 93K & St Andrews Engineering 76K (both secured against the ground) totalling just under 250K as of the last accounts.

The rest are unsecured loans which total around 290K which he won't pay and this is where the problem lies as he isn't paying these debts. Of these debts about 170K will be directors loans and the rest are trade creditors and other bits and pieces.

On bluenige's point about the offer if a definite offer had been formally made the club would surely have to put it to the members or else Mr Casson would just come out and ask why it hasn't been put to the members?

I don't like the whole way the board explained the offer to us at the AGM which doesn't tie in with the way things seem to have happened. However I also have reservations that the offer made is effectively only 250K when clearly the ground is worth much more than that.

[Manchester Branch]

I think we should be asking:

1) how exactly does he plan to invest in the football side of the business? Whenever we've had an x-figure sum to spend we've largely chucked it at ropey players. Is he serious about the youth set up? Would he put money into it to develop it at the expense of short term gains?

2) what are his plans for Holker St? The figures mentioned probably wouldn't touch the sides in terms of getting it back to a decent state for league football.

3) after what period - if at all - does he expect a return on his investment? In my view football at this level is not a profitable venture but maybe he wants returns other financial ones.

[Shaun]

Thank you John, very much appreciated mate.

[spongebobsquarepants]

However I also have reservations that the offer made is effectively only 250K when clearly the ground is worth much more than that.

Who would any excess be paid to?

He cannot buy the club and he is not buying the ground. All he can do is tell the members he will repay the debt and invest in the club.

The members would then have to agree to the company being changed to one with share capital where he is the largest shareholder.

I think we are now seeing the difficulties with the way the club is currently structured.

[barrowfan]

'No comment' from Brian Keen in tonight's EM.

[Hadrian]

the last time the board was questioned about the investor`s cffer,the answer given was that there was a "non-disclosure agreement" and anyway nothing had really been offered and it was pretty much a non-event,by reading last night`s mail it`s pretty obvious this was not the case,and they know that if we had known then what we know now pressure would have been put on them to at least try to get to a point where a decision had to be made!

i`m sure that they (the board) hoped that the guy would lose interest and go away!

You might be sure of that but I don't know how you can draw that inference or why the board would hope that to be the case. The second half of tonight's meeting might give the opportunity to clarify things.

Clearly, by speaking to the press at this time, Mr Casson is hoping to put some sort of pressure on the club and its members.

Questions in my mind would revolve around whether any direct discussion has taken place or has it all been done through Mr Casson's Liverpool solicitors, whether an offer was actually put to the club (or is Mr Casson now saying this is what I would have done/would do?), why requested information was not sent by the club to Mr Casson and whether Mr Casson would like to buy the ground (see today's further NWEM article) or just the business, which arguably is worth almost nothing without the ground. (If the former then the article suggests that he clearly disputes the apparently independent valuations that were made on behalf of the club - £450000 in 2005 and £600000 in 2010 according to the NWEM and an accomodation would need to be reached on this as well as on debts, including loans, secured or not.)

Finally I hope that the stir around the potential conversion of the members' club back to a public/private company will not be allowed to divert attention from the original purpose of this evening's meeting - to hear the plans of the manager which must be based upon the current position of the club not some hypothetical future possibility.

[Cokey]

We're hardly a members club as things stand. Major decisions have been made time and time again with no consultation with the members. This is the fresh start that is needed, hopefully Keen and co won't put the blockers on things.

[Cokey]

Another point, the title of this thread is inaccurate. Is the potential investor American? I thought he was born in Barrow?

[blue nige]

As i have previously stated one obstacle is that certain directors have a "confliclt of interest" this is confirmed in the club "statement 24-9-13 when in the next to last paragraph and i quote"and also advised that if the agreed market value was lessthan the total ammount of debt to be repaid within barrow afc limited then if a sale was agreed at market value it would be the directors who lost out financially"
i am not stupid i can understand this, but until this is resolved we are going to have problems because of their decisions (right or wrong)with any progress this club can achieve!

[John Very Little]

However I also have reservations that the offer made is effectively only 250K when clearly the ground is worth much more than that.

Who would any excess be paid to?
He cannot buy the club and he is not buying the ground. All he can do is tell the members he will repay the debt and invest in the club.
The members would then have to agree to the company being changed to one with share capital where he is the largest shareholder.
I think we are now seeing the difficulties with the way the club is currently structured.

I agree there's a whole host of problems with the way things are structured and it's been exaserbated by directors loaning the company their cash. However at the time the loans were made I suspect we'd have probably ended up in administration if their cash wasn't forthcoming.
The current members club would have to be paid the cash as they have debts and own the ground so therefore the members club should sell the ground for everything it can get and its worth far more than 250K.

As I understand it the members club cannot convert directly from a members club to a shareholding company. I think a separate shareholding company would have to be set up and the members would have to agree to transfer the assets from the members company to the shareholding company and I'd question whether the FA would allow the assets (ground) to be transferred from one company to the other while leaving the original members company with a whole load of debts and no assets?

With this offer we would be losing control of our ground forever for 250K if it was accepted. Why can't people see this?

[John Very Little]

As i have previously stated one obstacle is that certain directors have a "confliclt of interest" this is confirmed in the club "statement 24-9-13 when in the next to last paragraph and i quote"and also advised that if the agreed market value was lessthan the total ammount of debt to be repaid within barrow afc limited then if a sale was agreed at market value it would be the directors who lost out financially"
i am not stupid i can understand this, but until this is resolved we are going to have problems because of their decisions (right or wrong)with any progress this club can achieve!

I don't think we're in that position yet though. The actual value of the debts may not be as high as is being stated in the accounts as many of the 93.2K of debentures would probably write off their debts.
However I agree that until the directors loans are paid off then we will have directors who have a conflict of interests when offers like this are made. One way of resolving this problem would be to take out another loan/mortgage on the ground that pays off the directors loans in addition to what's left the existing mortgage and the St Andrews Engineering loan?

[Klaus Moogintaal]

I think some people would accept this rather than defaulting further on down the line. Who owned the ground when McCullough was chairman?

[barrowfan]

The club has financial advisors.

I would like to hear their views on the situation.

[John Very Little]

I think some people would accept this rather than defaulting further on down the line. Who owned the ground when McCullough was chairman?

McCullough as he was the major shareholder - it was a shareholding company back then.
It was also before the time dodgy businessmen realised they could own a football club and get hold of the ground and sell it for themselves.