New roof for HSE and plan B for redevelopment

Jonty · Post by **Jonty** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:30 pm

With the never ending wait for news with regards to HS re-development. Ok so "it's out of our hands"? What does that mean? Does it mean we could wait for another 2 years for news? Then another 2 years for planning etc etc. Is it time for the the club to take control of redevelopment and set a strategy for taking it forward. How long until we turn effort into other avenues? We need to focus on a re developed ground that we can turn into a reality. This will put energy collectively back into the club and it needs it. Only recently have we seen what can be done with all the efforts being put into the maintenance area. Fan power can drive things forward. I want our board to leave this to the members now it's starting to pick up and get focused on a Plan B for Holker Street

Vision- The HSE is a fantastic traditional football terrace- that should and could be brought back to life. I don't believe for a minute it needs to be pulled down and re-built- at what cost? and what added value to the fans / club? What are the roofing options- see below for what Brentford did with the aid of a football grant. Modern build designs and lighter materials mean we may be able to overcome the "built on ash" issues- this cantilever roof at Brentford doesn't touch the terrace below and was funded by a sports grant- Well why can't we do this? Then there is the Popular side- what exactly is wrong with it? nothing. Again- there is scope for development- by re-introducing the missing 4 or 5 steps of terracing and bringing it back down to pitch level. Behind- there is acres of room for food outlets / bars / modern toilets! Then there's the Main Stand- built with expansion in mind- either side to the full length of the pitch- I've seen under the stand- perfect for development- A sports bar / change-rooms etc- It can be done and then you have a 2000 seat capacity stand. The Crossbar end- Not in the best position and not in the best state but it could be refurbished and re-roofed. The space in the front of it can be utilised to create an away end for visiting fans with a more than useful capacity. Crossbar 2 right next to it- increasing scope and introducing new revenue streams.

new floodlights / pitch / electronic turnstyle counting / these things can be set as an ongoing programme of work. There are sports grants to tap into.

These things could be done. Everyone's heads were collectively turned through a feasibility study that hasn't got off the ground. Do we need to spend £9m for an off the shelf design without character and four stands that are isolated from each other. Do we want that as fans?

The question is- How much longer, how much more time is going to be put into waiting for anything to ever happen with the HS re-development. I can only imagine it's a million miles away from reality because nothing has ever been announced. And then, if and when it does happen- how long would it take to get off the ground?- where would he club fit into this "Partnership". I'd rather we started looking actively at Plan "B" Consider the alternatives now and lets not waste any more time. A year on year prioritised development programme- Utilising every ounce of resource, local business sponsorship, partnership, grants and determination of all with a passion for Barrow. Then I'll start to really feel part of a growing community club.

This terrace look familiar?- It can be done.

anthony · Post by **anthony** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:59 pm

simply down to cash. even with grants the club have to put in a large amount of their own funds, the very same funds that BARROW AFC dont have.

Jonty · Post by **Jonty** » Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:47 pm

I do know this, but more sponsorships, seeking new investments, grants, business loans, membership growth, business growth, local partnerships, are totally exhausted avenues? It wouldn't be an overnight thing, but how long has this been going on? I assume a £9m investment would be some kind of PFI link up with funding as part of a wider project.

Ralph · Post by **Ralph** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 5:08 am

No, it's a bit more than this, when Colin Moore commissioned out an engineering report on the Holker Street end, it was found the fill under the terraces isn't of high enough quality to support any load-bearing structure, and will need digging out to some depth before anything can be constructed, I'm afraid it's not as simple as using lighter weight materials, this doesn't mean it can't be done, but we would have to clear the whole end, and probably dig up most of the area between the pitch and Holker Street before any construction could be started.

DaveP · Post by **DaveP** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:47 am

Ralph with all due respect people keep going back to this.

That report is years old and Civil enginerring and technology has moved on since then.

I simply don't believe deep driven piles couldn't support a roof without the need to dig up the whole area

spirit of 1990 · Post by **spirit of 1990** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:27 am

All of that sounds very good Jonty but each area will have massive problems when coming to any sort of re-furb, as you mention. Any grants (which are drying up by the day) I think have to be matched by the club (could be totally wrong but I'm sure I read it or was told by someone quite up on that sort of thing)
So problem one would be - where would the club find this sort of money? it couldn't be the banks with what we have as back-up & falling gates.
Problem two would be - how are the club expected to pay the money back with the attendances at under 1000 & falling going on recent yearly number's & with no partner (as opposed to the NHS with the feasibility) willing to rent whatever space we have, especially on long term lease's as would surely be what is required.
Problem three would be -The time, effort & money would be way beyond what a group of part-time directors could ever dream of putting in, even with the enthusiasum & commitment they obviously have.

I think it'll be the re-development through the feasibility study or back to what we've got, which will be mend & make-do.

observer 1979 · Post by **observer 1979** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:59 pm

With regard to the Popular Side the amount of pillars coupled with the small steps mean when you get a few hundred people packed in the view of the playing area is severely restricted.

The Tomahawk Kid · Post by **The Tomahawk Kid** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:30 pm

Re: New roof for HSE and plan B for redevelopment

I won't hold my breath. Nor should anyone else. The word 'Fairy Tale' springs to mind...

snortypig · Post by **snortypig** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 3:42 pm

The Tomahawk Kid wrote: The word 'Fairy Tale' springs to mind...

that's 2 words.............

I'll get me coat

Spanner · Post by **Spanner** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:43 pm

DaveP wrote:That report is years old and Civil enginerring and technology has moved on since then.

And by the same token, the club's redevelopment plans were put together before the invention of the steam engine I think. That's what it feels like at least.

All will no doubt be explained at the next AGM, which incidentally I am looking forward to attending via the personal teleporting unit that will be widely available by then...

K_BFC · Post by **K_BFC** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:39 pm

DaveP wrote:Ralph with all due respect people keep going back to this.

That report is years old and Civil enginerring and technology has moved on since then.

I simply don't believe deep driven piles couldn't support a roof without the need to dig up the whole area

So what civil engineering technology exists that would over come this problem? Honest question does any one know?

Recent technologies in most industries, even if they are cheaper, are usually sold on at increased cost to the user when new. I'm not sure the fact it could stand up on such dodgy footings is the only consideration. I've not seen the alleged report but having talked to a number of developers over the last few years I know building regulations in our region are stringent, due to the weather we get. It would take a battering over the course of a year due to the direction if faces and the strong winds it would be exposed to.

Also, I was having a conversation the other day about the flood lights which still need sorting. I was trying to recall the cost of replacing the aging pylons which I believe was mentioned the other year. They will have to come down at some point and that is a more pressing concern than a roof over a deteriorating terrace that has a limited capacity due to no crush barriers. Without floodlights we would be unable to play games. I don't recall the figure but I remember thinking "where are we going to get that much cash", yet it was a fraction of the cost needed to build a new stand at the HSE. Let's face it a specialist roof to overcome the weak material under the HSE would probably cost almost as much as a new terrace with crush barriers, minus roof. At least we could increase ground capacity and screen off those pesky away supporters, even if we do get wet.

I would like to think we had a plan B, but it is always about cash, we don't have much so we have to think of small things for now. Keep saving your pocket money people, we might need it.

HenneysKnee · Post by **HenneysKnee** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 9:12 pm

Plan B is drawing Man United away in the 3rd round of the cup, holding them to a draw then having a televised replay at Holker Street

saltcellar · Post by **saltcellar** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:49 pm

HenneysKnee wrote:Plan B is drawing Man United away in the 3rd round of the cup, holding them to a draw then having a televised replay at Holker Street

I like this plan B, but you have not said who we will be playing in the fourth round.

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:54 pm

K_BFC wrote:
DaveP wrote: Also, I was having a conversation the other day about the flood lights which still need sorting. I was trying to recall the cost of replacing the aging pylons which I believe was mentioned the other year. They will have to come down at some point and that is a more pressing concern than a roof over a deteriorating terrace that has a limited capacity due to no crush barriers.

Problem solved! If we have to build new floodlight pylons, just make them a bit stronger and suspend a roof from some cables strung between them. I am sure Isambard Kingdom Brunel would have come up with a solution like that.

olbarrafancumbak · Post by **olbarrafancumbak** » Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:09 pm

Be interesting to know what it would cost for flood lights like off these guys?....http://www.sportsfloodlights.co.uk/floo ... lients.htm

seem to have a healthy portfolio of professional sporting clubs already

HS Terrace....when was it built in its current format? Concrete has a life expectancy of what, 50-60 years before it deteriorates? so its probably had it? lightweight concrete sectional terraces are probably the way forward, have the old shite removed, new terrace manufactured off plan and off site and delivered and constructed insitu. Be interesting to know A. cost to have the old terrace removed? B. Design cost? C. Manufacturing/installation cost?
Roof....the last roof despite being made from an old forrest and corrugated sheeting, probably weighs double if not more than some of the fancy metals/composites that are available these days, many buildings and structures overcome underground issues by using concrete rafts, to simply dismiss things without knowing the facts is just ignorance surely? yes it was an issue of weight int olde days but what harm like Monty Jonty suggests, is there of at least looking into it?

If we knew actuals rather than presumptions and sticking a finger in the air and plucking figures out of fresh air, it at least gives us a starting point.

9 Million for a new ground which has no soul and looks like barrow parks footy pitch is not what I would want as a fan of the club, nor do I want to polish the turd...so to speak! but a compromise has to be made somewhere and we also have to be realistic.

Good on ya Jonty for bringing it up!!

( and well done for volunteering to project manage it too

)