Potential Investor

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spirit of 1990
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Re: Potential Investor

Post by spirit of 1990 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:52 pm

John Very Little wrote:With this offer we would be losing control of our ground forever for 250K if it was accepted. Why can't people see this?
I'm glad someone has worked that out John, it didn't seem right to me from the off but I'm not switched on enough with the accounts & loans etc to fully work it all out. That's not to say he isn't genuine & he might come back with a better offer - after all what businessman would offer the top end of anything straight off?

We definitely need to know more than what we've been given so far if this is to progress. I think people are a little too willing to take what Paul Casson said in the EM at face value but we've got to remember that it wasn't a Q & A session, it was his take on things & he did make it did sound all rosey but we've had & heard all that before.

As I say, he could be genuine & if he is he will surely understand why we as supporters are (hopefully) going to be a little wary about this.

We were lucky once - we might not be so lucky a second time.

One thing that worried me was why he suddenly pulled out when the negotiations were gaining pace & they seemed to stall at the financial end, but reading between the lines it looks as though his Father sadly passed away at that time so obviously this would have been the last thing on his mind.

I hope he is what we all want & that's just a genuine fan who wants to help his old town & club out, I suppose they do exisit.
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Re: Potential Investor

Post by Steelworks End » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:57 pm

The control of the ground - or any future ground, should Holker St be sold for redevelopment - is an emotive issue, as it is for any team's supporters, and we are right to be concerned about what could happen. The history of the game is littered with the corpses of clubs who have lost their ground for whatever reason; from recent seasons Northwich, Kettering and Rushden & Diamonds, going further back Kingstonian and Maidstone United spring to mind. Equally of course there are clubs who have moved to new grounds and survived and in many cases prospered. Then there are clubs such as Telford (albeit a phoenix club) where the "old" ground has been completely rebuilt. In many of these - and other - examples the owners probably thought that they were acting in the best interests of their club; in other cases, their motives might have been completely different.

The current Barrow AFC structure means that control of the ground lies with the members, in theory at least. I'm not sure how many members we have at the moment (say, no more than 500 maximum), and as supporters they would have some influence over the future of the ground. If the club was restructured to be a limited company owned by its shareholders, then control over the ground would rest with the person or persons who, together or individually, owned 51% of the share capital. This was of course the situation up to (but not necessarily including, for the reasons of which we are aware) the Vaughan era.

Perhaps the Supporters Trust ownership model which has been mooted could be used in conjunction with the limited company route? As has been previously mentioned, the cost of owning shares in excess of the capital put in by a new investor, and thus retaining control, would be prohibitive.

But could a Supporters Trust own a "Golden Share" of nominal value, but one which would allow the supporters to veto any plans put forward by the (financial) shareholders that was not in the best interests of the footballing side of the business? This wouldn't preclude the sale of Holker Street, providing robust safeguards were in place at such time to ensure that a new ground would be available on terms satisfactory to the Supporters Trust and to the footballing authorities.

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Re: Potential Investor

Post by Spanner » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:04 pm

John Very Little wrote:One way of resolving this problem would be to take out another loan/mortgage on the ground that pays off the directors loans in addition to what's left the existing mortgage and the St Andrews Engineering loan?
You don't think the Directors tried this before loaning their own money? More than likely any potential lender (including the FBS if they were asked to increase the mortgage) took one look at the state the club was in and ran a million miles from any such arrangement.
John Very Little wrote:However at the time the loans were made I suspect we'd have probably ended up in administration if their cash wasn't forthcoming.
Maybe voluntarily going into administration would have been a better course of action and resulted us being in a better shape now than we are.

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Re: Potential Investor

Post by olbarrafancumbak » Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:57 pm

This could be the best offer the club has or will ever receive and I think we would be foolish not to entertain the offer!!

Unfortunately I am no multi millionaire and I doubt any of you guys are either? So, will we ever have a Barrow lad with the resources that Mr Casson has ever again that would like to buy his home town club? (if I had the money, I would try too)

I think his intentions are genuine, I think he genuinely wants to help out what was once his childhood team... and why not?

For all the people that are saying No...your foolish and as blind as the current board!!

We have learned our lesson from the V****n era.. lets take what we know from this and move forward with what is a great chance!!

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Re: Potential Investor

Post by Dalton Bluebird » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:01 pm

olbarrafancumbak wrote:This could be the best offer the club has or will ever receive and I think we would be foolish not to entertain the offer!!

Unfortunately I am no multi millionaire and I doubt any of you guys are either? So, will we ever have a Barrow lad with the resources that Mr Casson has ever again that would like to buy his home town club? (if I had the money, I would try too)

I think his intentions are genuine, I think he genuinely wants to help out what was once his childhood team... and why not?

For all the people that are saying No...your foolish and as blind as the current board!!

We have learned our lesson from the V****n era.. lets take what we know from this and move forward with what is a great chance!!

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Re: Potential Investor

Post by mysteryinvestor » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:42 pm

Steelworks End wrote: Perhaps the Supporters Trust ownership model which has been mooted could be used in conjunction with the limited company route? As has been previously mentioned, the cost of owning shares in excess of the capital put in by a new investor, and thus retaining control, would be prohibitive.

But could a Supporters Trust own a "Golden Share" of nominal value, but one which would allow the supporters to veto any plans put forward by the (financial) shareholders that was not in the best interests of the footballing side of the business? This wouldn't preclude the sale of Holker Street, providing robust safeguards were in place at such time to ensure that a new ground would be available on terms satisfactory to the Supporters Trust and to the footballing authorities.
People's main concern regarding Mr Casson is that he's really after the land/ground as opposed to the football club. He seems to say that he's only after the football club as he's a 'lifelong fan'. 'If' that's the case I think there's an easy solution that ought to keep both Mr Casson and the fans happy:

1. Convert the club to a limited company
2. Sell Mr Casson ownership for a sum/basis to be agreed
3. However, the fans club together and buy (say) 25% of the shares of the limited company (or even a smaller % - see: below)
4. Amend the standard company Article of Association (or Memorandum) to say something like 'a special resolution shall be required in order to sell or otherwise deal in any respect with regards to the land (gist)'
5. from memory I think a shareholder with 25% of the shares of a company can block a special resolution
6. alternatively, with 25% of the shares (or much less, say even 10%) you could again amend the Articles/Memorandum to say that 'in the event of any proposal to sell or otherwise deal with the land the percentage shares owned by 'x' (i.e. the fans group) shall be multiplied by (say) five with a casting vote'
7. option 5 or 6 above will give Mr Casson full control to run the club (which he says is what he's after) whilst, for a relatively small investment, give the fans both an interest and more importantly the power to outvote Mr Casson on one single issue (i.e. any attempt to sell or otherwise deal with the land)

If Mr Casson's intentions are what he says they are he should hopefully be okay with a proposal of the kind mentioned above.

The ground only has any real value to develop - either for commercial purposes (see: Asda's covenant) or for housing. My guess is that for either of these purposes the value of the land would be £500 - £600k. If the club was sold to Mr Casson with the above legal structure in place it would also solve the issue of the apparent 'high' value placed by someone/the Board over the ground. The ground would then only be worth value as it's current use (i.e. a football club) because the fans (I assume) would never vote in favour of developing it.

Over to you Mr Casson.

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Re: Potential Investor

Post by audigex » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:51 pm

(Edit: Just seen the post above, which to be honest explains it much better. At the end of the day, all most of the fans want is a guarantee that nobody can try to strip the club of the ground or build up debts we can't afford. To me, any genuine benefactor with no intention of selling the ground would agree to that)

I'd welcome any investment: provided robust safeguards were in place to ensure that the club couldn't be left in a worse situation than it started... or rather, since risk is inevitable, that it can't be left groundless and with a mass of debt.

I wouldn't just sell the club, no - because if the ownership is fully transferred away from the membership then we could find ourself in 5 years time with no club, no money and, in a departure from now, no ground.

I don't understand the business world in it's entirety - I doubt the vast majority of you do, either - so I doubt most of us can give a real subjective opinion on whether the takeover bid was good or not.... but I don't think we should give away our few assets based on unsubstantiated promises alone.

I've no idea where the guy is coming from - whether he's
- a genuine fan who wants to help his club (but I've not heard much to support that)
- a nostalgic ex-pat who's done well and wants to do something for his home town, but with limits (in which case he probably wants a decent deal)
- a businessman who wants to show off to his mates and make some money from the club's assets.
- Something else entirely

But until I know exactly what his plans and intentions are, the fact he's from Barrow has nothing at all to do with it in my eyes - he's a business man, and he's not going to want to lose money. If he thinks a non-league football club is going to turn a profit any time soon from a moderate investment. 250k to write off the debts, plus 10k a month for a few years might get us into the conference, but based on recent years it appears that a few million is needed to get into the Football League.

At the end of the day, until I've either gotten to know the guy personally and trust him to do the right thing (unlikely, as I've never met the guy) or see a business proposal that leaves the club with a guaranteed basic level it would be returned to if he backed out (ie owning the ground, and no secured debts), then I'm not going to support giving someone our ground in exchange for them writing off a debt of lesser value.

If you'd paid off half (50k) of a 100k mortgage, and someone offered to pay off the over half of the mortgage and pay you two years of your mortgage payment, but they would own your house starting immediately, would you take it? As far as I can see, that's all that would be guaranteed in this offer.

Unless the amount of debt written off + guaranteed payments (not just promises) is at least equal to the value of the ground minus the current mortgage (with two years of interest); then surely we're giving away something in exchange for nothing but promises.
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Re: Potential Investor

Post by whitty1969 » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:01 pm

Lets not be too harsh here.
If I was putting £1,000,000 of my own money into a struggling BSN team that was losing money every week and had lots of
unpaid bills. Then I would want full control too.
No-one will invest that much without control.
Quite happy to give up my membership and go there again.
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Re: American Investor

Post by Jonty » Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:21 pm

Kieran wrote:
John Very Little wrote: Unless the Trust itself was the largest shareholder you'd just get out-voted by the owner or other larger shareholders on any votes. I suspect we'd probably need a minimum of about half a million quid just to be the largest shareholder and I don't think there's any way we could raise this amount unless we converted into another ownership model. That would also take months to organise but the recent bidder could come back at any time.
I don't think Jonty was suggesting that we become the largest shareholder? Thats clearly unrealistic at the present time. Doing what Jonty suggests so that we do own a share isn't though, and seems a sensible suggestion to me.
yes thats's how I was pitching it. The existing Membership and various fundraising brings in a healthy sum for the club year on year. This could be used to purchase shares through a non profit making trust. No dividends paid on on these shares- the return would be having some influence on how the club is being run. A one vote per member basis (like now) Crucial to this would be having one or two members voted to represent the trust at board level. Having the existing membership already would make it easier for any transition to a trust. Would have to take further supporters trust experts advice on this and this could be arranged if and when.

Whitty. No! Fans need to have some say in how a club is run. Remember the banner!
Last edited by Jonty on Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: American Investor

Post by Three Lie Ins » Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:14 pm

John Very Little wrote:
Shaun wrote:Just out of polite interest - and please pardon my ignorance - but perhaps one of the members/someone privy to this info can answer:
1. Who exactly do we owe money to?
2. From when exactly?
3. How much do we exactly owe them?
Ta.
We owe money to various different creditors but some are secured loans (against the ground) and the rest are unsecured. Mr Casson has offered to pay the loans secured against the ground to Furness Building Society 79K (mortgage), Debentures 93K & St Andrews Engineering 75K (both secured against the ground) totalling just under 250K as of the last accounts.

The rest are unsecured loans which total around 290K which he won't pay and this is where the problem lies as he isn't paying these debts. Of these debts about 170K will be directors loans and the rest are trade creditors and other bits and pieces.

On bluenige's point about the offer if a definite offer had been formally made the club would surely have to put it to the members or else Mr Casson would just come out and ask why it hasn't been put to the members?



I don't like the whole way the board explained the offer to us at the AGM which doesn't tie in with the way things seem to have happened. However I also have reservations that the offer made is effectively only 250K when clearly the ground is worth much more than that.
The ground is only worth more than £250K if the land is available for redevelopment. On a continuing use basis its worth nothing or very little as no one is going to make much money if any out of running a football business at Holker Street.

If the ground is genuinely worth £600k could the directors consider converting their loans to capital? I doubt they will because its only worth that sum if the land is redeveloped. The bid is based on running a football club at HS not building houses on the land and on that basis it is clearly worth much less than £250K

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Re: Potential Investor

Post by Bingo » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:47 am

If I had millions in the bank id invest in the club but I'd need some control I certainly wouldn't hand it over to the current BOD - they would soon waste it.

Lots of questions to be answered

I can't see this guy wanting to simply get his hands on the ground to simply sell it off and make a fast buck - why go to all that hassle - I also agree that there is no money to be made at a non league club but there are other benefits of investing in your hometown club etc

We have never been a pepper members club -

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Re: Potential Investor

Post by phil » Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:33 am

whitty1969 wrote:Lets not be too harsh here.
If I was putting £1,000,000 of my own money into a struggling BSN team that was losing money every week and had lots of
unpaid bills. Then I would want full control too.
No-one will invest that much without control.
Quite happy to give up my membership and go there again.
Lets not forget we all read it in the NWEM.....
+1
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Re: Potential Investor

Post by spongebobsquarepants » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:21 am

If he pays off the debt secured on the ground and then pays a further £400k as some are suggesting where does the money go?

To the Keens? Divided between the membership?
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Re: Potential Investor

Post by barrowfan_chris » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:59 am

The club stated last night no offer was ever made and it didn't even reach the stage of negotiating offers.

I did feel for the club a little bit, as last night was meant to be the meet the manager night more than anything so the timing could have been better.

AGM in February is the time for discussing this.

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Re: Potential Investor

Post by olbarrafancumbak » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:12 pm

One thing I would like Mr Casson to consider..

If he is as loaded as its made out, would he consider a. settling debts b. plough money into team (like he suggested) and development of local youth and talent and finally c. consider formulating a plan to develop the ground into something that not only brings us into the 21st century and benefits the fans but perhaps creating other revenue by office space, bars, catering etc?

Some written agreement by him regarding the safe guarding the future of the Club and Ground? if he has nowt to hide and only has good intentions for the Club then he should have no issues with agreeing to this?

Time to move forward, time to embrace this guy and get the ball moving for the sake of the club and the town..

Get behind this guy, invite him over for a face to face with us..I would even consider chipping in to pay for his flight over if it means Barrow AFC get a great new future!

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